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If this game series still has fans, then let's all ask for one last thing. Stainless how about you give us the source code?

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MrDeviance's picture
Cunning Stunt Licker
Posts: 418
Submitted: Tue, 02/10/2018 - 15:26

CzechDeath wrote:
Yea I think it is pretty tricky. Situation they are in is inherently hidden from us, it is impossible for us fans to know and thus we base our assumptions on other assumptions. Here are mine.

Continuing Carmageddon brand would make sense from perspective of Stainless working pretty hard not only to win their brand back, but also to create new addition and bring beloved game up to date for old and new audiences. It would be shame to just throw it away and make another new brand in carmageddon spirit, as Carmageddon brand has value in recognition and nostalgia.

That recognition is "stained" =D, partially by legic problems and partially by wild imaginations of fans who expected impossible in their heads only to have their dreams inevidebly clash with reality, which is always fault on side of the individual, however it still does project out on sales and promoting or boycoting by "word of mouth" (?)

Nostalgia on the other hand. I know only 2 games that managed to hit the spot were they sutisfied old and new fans. DOOM2016 and HITMAN:World of assassination. Everyone else either did not attract new fans or alienated old. and in the worse case did both. Looking at you DUKE. Not easy thing to do at all.

DLCs I remember were mentioned in twich streams. New carmageddon was suppose to be a platform which was to be further extended with more content.So it would make sense if next thing was indeed a DLC.

Another big thing mentioned in twich streams was workshop support, which could provide good solution for modding.

Over all i would wish for some big patch that first of all fixes that insane mountain of overlooked shit that got broken in CMD, but work in CR.. Then address shit that was always broken. and THEN would be good time for DLCs, but: "Would enough people care?"

Modders are leaving and some didn't even return in the first place. People are angry and concider carma a failure, spreading toxic shit everywhere making it even worse. So would DLC and patches even return some money to stainless? Would any of that shed better light on Carmageddon in the long run? Maybe it is good time for something like that NOW, when things like No man's sky were able to fix their reputation more or less. Maybe that's the new trend, and people will learn to be more forgiving.

That is a lot of wishful thinking that is very far from the truth.
Stainless is dead at their choice. I did not kill them, they are acting dead right now and you can tell by looking at this place.
You can call them names, curse them, damn them to hell and they won't reply to you.
They just don't see what we post here anymore. They are done with this forum and I am amazed it's still online at this point.
There is no way you can expect them to make more carmageddon, because it would have to be a situation where they obtain funds magically.
They did a kickstarter to build this game in the first place and I am pretty sure they've spent the little cash they've got to build it.
So how can you reasonably expect them to make more carmageddon dlc or sequels, if their brand is tarnished and their wallet is empty?
You don't have to be a genius to see these things. It's as simple as 1+1=2 they asked for money, they barely got what they asked for and then they built a game that didn't sell and received bad reviews everywhere.
It's a done deal, they flopped in the most classic way possible.

They did a bad game and they barely had money to make it and then it didn't sell, the end.
The only way to recover the brand from such a situation is to have a huuuuuuge ass fanbase for the series, that are willing to undertand that if the game gets sold to a different publisher, a new game could have potential.
The sad part here is that as it can be seen, the community for this game is almost dead and investing in such a dead brand would be suicide for a publisher.
I can't possibly imagine anybody crazy enough to risk buying the carmageddon IP right now and hope to ressurect it.
Nobody is as stupid as Randy Pitchford was, when he shelled out cash for the Duke Nukem IP in a time when it was all but dead.
Look at Duke Nukem now. It was bought by Gearbox and instead of using this ip to make money out of it, they threw it in the darkest drawer they have at their HQ, never to be seen or talked about ever since.
Basically, Duke Nukem is the best example to be constantly given when talking about the fate of carmageddon.
If Gearbox would have never bought Duke Nukem from 3DRealms, 3DRealms would have simply went bankrupt along with the Duke ip.
Surely if both Duke Nukem and Carmageddon would be granted a wish and be given to serious multi billion dev studios, they would become awesome again, I have no doubt about it but as they stand right now, they are doomed to be forgotten.

I commend Stainless for having the guts to dream they can make a comeback and become rich and popular again with this game but sadly, they just didn't have the right team or the money to pull it off.
Their vision for this game was flawed and all over the place as well as their ability to manage their optimization for the game.
What happened here is that they simply tried to make the game and couldn't achieve it the way it was supposed to be due to funds most likely.
They tried to fix things with Max Damage but they just couldn't.
Not only was the game poorly optimized but their vision for how the remake should look, was also flawed in many places.
They just lost a lot of the old fans when they went for the over the top cartoony look and they sure as hell didn't win new fans either.
I think they should just post a goodbye and close up the site. There's nothing more to be said or done.

Edited by: MrDeviance on Tue, 02/10/2018 - 15:47
AlexTSK's picture
I was in the War!
Posts: 2848
Submitted: Tue, 02/10/2018 - 15:42

MrDeviance wrote:
They did a bad game

No, they didnt, objectively speaking Max Damage is not a bad game. There are many factors that lead to the bad reception but a 'bad game' is not one of them. Yes Reincarnation was marred by poor initial performance and underwhelming graphical quality but it was and still is as fun as Carmageddon can be.

Patrick has said on a podcast that they had to rush the game out which was clearly a mistake since first impressions are quite important.

On topic though, we don't need the source code, we need a patch that makes the game completely open to modding, whats the bare minimum we need to patch the game ourselves?

These few things at least:

Make a separate save file that disables achievements if you've modded the game but at least let people save their progress, it makes mods more meaningful.
Fix the normal maps
Fix the headlight shadows
Open up certain options in the Yebis post processing stuff so we can dial in inaccessible effects like Ambient Occlusion.
Adjust the structure of how mods are read by the game so we can release mods for other mods without having to reupload the whole thing to fix one small bug.

Thats just the start, but i'd be very happy to make some stuff again if that patch rolled out.

MrDeviance's picture
Cunning Stunt Licker
Posts: 418
Submitted: Tue, 02/10/2018 - 15:59

Such a patch won't happen from Stainless at this point and as you may know, there are lots of games out there that do have huge numbers of fans out of which some are skilled enough and determined enough to actually hack together such types of patches themselves.
The problem that I was describing above among other things is that I am saddened to see just how few of us are left here, asking and poking about with this game.
I would have never expected this game series to be so abandoned by it's fans in such a short time span.
In order to have community patches for a game, you first need to have a community and that's one crucial thing that is apparently gone for this game.
There are not enough of us that care and the little of us that do, don't have the skill or time to fix the game, which is a shame.

Going back to the 3DRealms comparison, seeing how a random fan of 3DRealms born in Denmark (Frederik Schreiber) managed to buy the entire studio after it went bankrupt and it's remaining ips and now represents 3DRealms with his own team and makes games, maybe one day after Stainless goes officially under, it will come a day when it will be affordable enough to buy the Carmageddon ip for cheap and some random fan will try to reboot it maybe 5,10,15,20 years from now, who knows.
I think that's the only hope we have.
Otherwise, Stainless should encourage it's dead community to make a fan carmageddon game and if it's awesome, allow the fans to sell the game and split the cash with Stainless, Black Messa Source style.
Such am business model could provide useful.
They allow the fanbase come up with an unpaid devteam to make a carmageddon game that the community wants and then allow the devteam to sell the game and split the shares with Stainless.

Edited by: MrDeviance on Tue, 02/10/2018 - 16:08
YautjaLord's picture
Piledriver
Kickstarter Backer
Posts: 632
Submitted: Tue, 02/10/2018 - 16:18

I still have both games (C:R and C:MD) in my Games library and i actually play C2 even more than later 2 & still enjoy all of them, Mr. D, so i guess i'm the one you didn't expect to reply to you dude, or mate, or however you'd like to be called. Although i would want to fiddle with some or all of the Yebis 3, Umbra and MegaTextures stuff to make game prettier. :) It still looks and plays great on my rig, i actually want to include it in my YT rig review as some sort of gaming benchmark, 1080p and even 4k @ some point among other games i have.

As for modding: i still have a .blend file somewhere on my external HDD of the "vehicle" i plan to finish @ some point in this lifetime too. lol So, long story short: maybe it's flop for you, but it is not such a flop for me, if i still play it to this day. Just my 2 cents/pennies/sheckels/etc...... Cheers all and you Mr. D especially.

P.S. I also visit this site once in a week or 2 and Fan Art & Fan sites especially. So, yeah.... Life's still good when Carma is around? lol jk Cheers.

Edited by: YautjaLord on Tue, 02/10/2018 - 16:23

CzechDeath's picture
Velociraptor Fister
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Posts: 1912
Submitted: Tue, 02/10/2018 - 16:40

ME: "I am wrong, but here is my opinion anyways"

MRD: "YOU'RE WRONG HAH!"

You know who else does that? Absolute fucking retards... =D

Edited by: CzechDeath on Tue, 02/10/2018 - 17:03

Privata's picture
Cunning Stunt Licker
Posts: 374
Submitted: Tue, 02/10/2018 - 19:03

I would not be too surprised if they went for the Battle Royal genre.

I am not a big fan of them but with a Carma twist it could be intresting (as long as classic modes are present as well)

Imagine a map that is made up of multiple areas from CMD and 20 or so cars are dropped on the map (With the balloon powerup)

Everyone has 1 min at first so you either hunt other Players (or AI, because all games need bots IMO) or go Ped harvesting.

Multiple victory conditions could be inplace from the first 3 to finish the race become "safe" and win, so they leave the match (unless they want to stay and risk it all for extra points)
Then you are left with wining by killing every other racer or killing all the peds.

If everyone runs out of time its the player with the most credit that is the survivor.

Of course I would much rather a new game with just classic Carma (C2 style with player death)

Trent's picture
I was in the War!
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Posts: 3042
Submitted: Tue, 02/10/2018 - 20:01

Mr. D, didn't you once boast about singlehandedly ruining Interceptor by causing RoTT to be flop? Your mention of them is a bit simplistic. Schreiber wasn't a random fan who decided to buy 3D Realms after it has gone bankrupt; he was a fan who put together a dev team which had lots of interactions and business with Apogee ( RoTT was published by Apogee) well before the investment company which funded Interceptor bought the very active company of Apogee/3D Realms. It's a very different story to "random fan buys bust company".

A lot of this seems to come down to complaining that the community isn't making your perfect Carmageddon for you. As I keep saying whenever you complain about how modders should fix the game for you: you can do it yourself if you really want to, stop complaining that others aren't doing it if you're not going to try yourself.

The issues Alex pointed out aren't fixable by mods, they require a patch by stainless as they are either inaccessible core engine systems, middleware related or require source content, or a combination of the above. No doubt there are people in other gaming communities with the skills to reverse engineer the EXE to solve some of these issues but it would no doubt need extensive work and substantial time which realistically probably isn't worth anyone doing. Things like the headlight shadows and normal maps can only be fixed using the original source assets, the former needs the levels source assetd processed by Umbra with adjusted settings while the latter needs source every single normal map reprocessed through a fixed build pipeline as the missing data in the released build is, ya know, missing. Not things fans can do regardless of skill or desire.

Your whole passive aggressive argument about how Stainless should allow fans to make their own Carma games and sell them is predisposed on the notion that Stainless won't allow it. Have you pitched a game to them? Have you put together a prototype to show them what your game will be like and why they should support your endeavour? I might be wrong but my interactions with stainless have suggested that they would be plenty open to working with fan projects. After all they've had fans involved with Carma projects before, such as with the GoG releases of the old games. It's obviously not going to be as simple as "HURRHURRHURR. I R FAN I MAKE NOO CURMERGADDIN." But if you've got a good project you think Stainless will want their name associated with then I'm sure they'd be open to discussions. You just have to be proactive about it instead just moaning on a forum you constantly claim is dead.

Rigor's picture
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Posts: 188
Submitted: Tue, 02/10/2018 - 21:40

One thing sure, fans are still there :)

MrDeviance's picture
Cunning Stunt Licker
Posts: 418
Submitted: Wed, 03/10/2018 - 08:10

Trent wrote:
Mr. D, didn't you once boast about singlehandedly ruining Interceptor by causing RoTT to be flop? Your mention of them is a bit simplistic. Schreiber wasn't a random fan who decided to buy 3D Realms after it has gone bankrupt; he was a fan who put together a dev team which had lots of interactions and business with Apogee ( RoTT was published by Apogee) well before the investment company which funded Interceptor bought the very active company of Apogee/3D Realms. It's a very different story to "random fan buys bust company".

I know Schreiber much better than you might think. I've talked to him since years before he ever attempted to buy 3drealms.
I've initially supported his ideals for his TCmods but as time passed, he kept failing at everything and refusing to admit his faults.
He was always pointing fingers to somebody else until it became clear that he was incapable but loved attention whoring.
He has lots of problems that I pointed out and when he started making ROTT he was adertising bullshit and constantly trying to put a spin on what he was showing from his team's development.
I indeed fucked Interceptor as a company but not through ill intent but through exposing Schreiber's bullshit at every corner.
I would ruin his bullshit every chance I had up to the point where many people started seeing his bullshit.
I kept calling him out and initially people said I was crazy or that I have something against him but after a while they all more or less agreed with me and started calling him out too.
When the game came out, it flopped bad and he pmd me cursing me and telling me it was all my fault for some reason.
After a while, he finally asked the admin of the forum to join his team and have me banned from the forum the next day and so it happened.
That's just a little inside info on that can of worms that I stopped bothering with since some years now.
The fact that Schreiber bought 3drealms is one of the worst things that could happen to an already dead company but that's a different story.

Trent wrote:
A lot of this seems to come down to complaining that the community isn't making your perfect Carmageddon for you. As I keep saying whenever you complain about how modders should fix the game for you: you can do it yourself if you really want to, stop complaining that others aren't doing it if you're not going to try yourself.

At the moment when I created this topic, there was nobody posting here since months.
I am pretty sure that people being active in this topic right now is much better than it was before I made this topic.
My idea is to kick things in the ass until they either die or they retaliate.
I like creating mess where I see stagnation and mold forming. That's my idea.
Leaving this community to gather mold with nobody posting anything anymore, is the equivalent of deleting the bookmark to this site and forgetting about it.
I sure would love to have people make my fav game for me(who wouldn't?) but I don't expect anybody to do that the way you claim I am.
I am merely trying to see what's left here and it seems that pretty much all is dead, The Game, Stainless, The Community, The Determination, All Hope.
All that is left to happen is see this forum error 404 soon.

Trent wrote:
Your whole passive aggressive argument about how Stainless should allow fans to make their own Carma games and sell them is predisposed on the notion that Stainless won't allow it. Have you pitched a game to them? Have you put together a prototype to show them what your game will be like and why they should support your endeavour? I might be wrong but my interactions with stainless have suggested that they would be plenty open to working with fan projects. After all they've had fans involved with Carma projects before, such as with the GoG releases of the old games. It's obviously not going to be as simple as "HURRHURRHURR. I R FAN I MAKE NOO CURMERGADDIN." But if you've got a good project you think Stainless will want their name associated with then I'm sure they'd be open to discussions. You just have to be proactive about it instead just moaning on a forum you constantly claim is dead.

I am much easier to tolerate when I am being passive aggressive rather than seeing me post unchained, trust me.
I at least opened up the subject here to see what people think of this ideea.
If I had a game to pitch to Stainless, I would have pitched it to them before making this topic but clearly I don't have a game nor a team.
But I am under the impression that people don't think it would be legal to start such a thing and that's why nobody does.
Either that or there's truly nobody interested in making something.

If Stainless came out of their eternal sleep and made an announcement that they are eager to see community made Carmageddon games and publicly encouraged such a move, I think much more people would think about it.
If Stainless likes to play silent and be criptic about their openness to such projects, then surely nobody will even consider making such a game, simply because it's an accepted fact that companies don't usually allow such things.

Edited by: MrDeviance on Wed, 03/10/2018 - 08:34
CzechDeath's picture
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Submitted: Wed, 03/10/2018 - 09:48

NPD big as a mouobtain!

MrDeviance wrote:
I've initially supported his ideals for his TCmods but as time passed, he kept failing at everything and refusing to admit his faults.

People suffering with this disorder concider the horrible shit they do to other people, to be for their own good, or that they have right to behave like that.

Quote:
I indeed fucked Interceptor as a company but not through ill intent but through exposing Schreiber's bullshit at every corner.

Agsin for their own good, right? But they were too stupid to see the light. Because everybody is just dumber than you. Lack of empaty and conscience allows for absolute ruthlesness, with no remorse. In the end of the day,your victims are at fault, not you, the holy saviour.

Quote:
At the moment when I created this topic, there was nobody posting here since months.

Came here and saved the day. What would we do without you? You descent up on us from the clouds to show us the path.

Quote:
My idea is to kick things in the ass until they either die or they retaliate.

Also again no empathy what so ever. Because without your iniciative, this planet would stop turning and people would just stop in their tracks and starve to death. Thank god for you steiring things up, Carrying weight of the world on your very shoulders.

Quote:
I kept calling him out and initially people said I was crazy or that I have something against him but after a while they all more or less agreed with me and started calling him out too.
When the game came out, it flopped bad and he pmd me cursing me and telling me it was all my fault for some reason.

You keep helping everybody and they keep hating you, Could it be because you are not actually helping? NO of course not, You are the only person alive that is right. No regard for other people, just descruction with no corelation with you.

Quote:
I am merely trying to see what's left here and it seems that pretty much all is dead, The Game, Stainless, The Community, The Determination, All Hope.

Looking down at the apocalyptic landscape from your fiery chariot in the sky. You tried, but did the silly humans listen? No, they never do. You poor victim.

Quote:
I am much easier to tolerate when I am being passive aggressive rather than seeing me post unchained, trust me.

You are not only all knowing, but also all powerfull, we should fear you. -> God complex 101.

Quote:
I at least opened up the subject here to see what people think of this ideea.

Thank you for inventing ideas. untill you came here, nobody even knew what "thinking" is.

Are you listening to your self? Seriously. Do you know what Narcissistic personality disorder is? I'm totally serious now. You should really look in to it. Or atleast don't ever have children, because they will suffer.horribly and you will never even notice.

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